In the last week, I heard an analyst call Kevin Garnett a future Hall of Famer and Rick Carlisle refer to Dirk Nowitski as a Hall of Fame player.
I have not heard anyone refer to Rasheed Wallace as a Hall of Fame player, though I would argue Wallace is the second best power forward in the league since Karl Malone retired.
What can Garnett do that Wallace cannot? What can Nowitski do that Wallace cannot? Which player has a championship ring?
When Wallace played with Ben Wallace, at the time a three-time Defensive Player of the Year Award winner (I, however, still do not buy it and believe he is an overrated defender), Rasheed Wallace drew the assignment of Tim Duncan, the league's best power forward. While Rasheed Wallace has never won a DPOY award, and KG has, Wallace is as good a defensive player as any post player in the NBA, and has been for some time, as evidenced by his domination of Dwight Howard in the 4th Quarter last night.
Offensively, Wallace can make the three like Nowitski. However, he also has better moves on the low block than KG or Dirk.
The biggest knock on Wallace has been that he doesn't want to be "the guy." However, don't people question Nowitski and KG for the same thing? Won't KG pass the ball late in a game if he thinks a teammate has a better shot? Doesn't Jason Terry take as many big shots for Dallas as Nowitski?
This is not meant to knock KG or Dirk. I like both players. However, I think Wallace has been one of the most talented players in the league for a long time and few people notice, even though he has played on play-off teams for almost his entire career.
So, if Wallace is not a Hall of Fame candidate, why not?
Wednesday, May 14, 2008
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If Rasheed Wallace played as hard every night as Dirk and KG then he'd be headed for the hall too. It's as simple as that.
Sheed's the shit, but probably not a hall of famer based on The Man's rules.
He's a hall of famer in everyone else's book though, like Kemp. Cept he's probably better than Kemp, too. Sheed's the shit man, ain't no one gonna argue against that.
Sheed just could never put up the type of full-season numbers that warrant him being in the hall in most people's eyes. The guy's averaged 15 and 7 for his career, and never averaged more than 20 points or 9 rebounds in a season, things that KG and Dirk do consistently, season after season (although KG didn't do it this season). He has all the skills and all the talent in the world, just not the desire to dominate.
I have been a Blazers fan for over 30 years. I watched Rasheed play for several years in Portland. The man is supremely talented, but as other commenters have noted, he does not come to play every night.
And for a while, he shied away from playing inside and became a 3-pt chucker when the Blazers really didn't want him playing a perimeter game.
I agree he's got the talent to be as good as any PF in the league...but he doesn't care enough to bring that talent every night.
Consistency. Also, for the record, Sheed does not shoot the three as well as Dirk does. Dirk's career percentage is higher than any individual season for Sheed (except for one season where he only had 41 attempts). Sheed is a somewhat better defender than Nowitzki (but doesn't rebound enough for his size), but Nowitzki dominates him in every offensive category. Talent-wise Sheed may well be better, but actual performance on the court is no contest between them. Dirk has been MUCH better.
What do KG and Dirk do that Rasheed doesn't do? How about score frequently, score efficiently, and rebound the ball?
In terms of measurable production, their lifetime PER's are not even close:
KG 23.93 4rth among active players
Dirk 23.92 5th
RW 17.4 42nd
One of the big reasons that Rasheed isn't a future Hall-of-Famer is that he didn't have the desire to be the best. He's MORE talented than either Kevin Garnett or Dirk Nowitzki, but they have nearly maxed out their potential--Rasheed never has and will end his career as a "never will be".
For all that Rasheed can do, he has never sought to take his career seriously enough to be the very best. I think that he's really content having the respect of his peers, as they know he's got the talent to be, potentially, the greatest power forward to ever play (yes, over Tim Duncan) and he also takes solace in that his family is provided for, but he's suffered from Charles Barkley Syndrome, which is characterized by disdain for the maximum outside of a playoff setting. Rasheed, like Charles, has used the season to play his way into shape and to dog it, though Rasheed never had the audacity to admit this.
Rasheed also doesn't have the drive to be "The Man", which in his case, has hurt his ability to be a Hall-of-Famer, for all of his talent. Rasheed, theoretically, is the Hall of Fame version of Cliff Robinson, a 3-position frontcourt player who could easily play (and sometimes dominate a game) in any of those spots, but I suppose he chose to take more after Cliff than we all realize.
In the end, Rasheed will be the one of the guys we ask, "What could he have been?" and we'll think about it and shake our heads, just like we can think about what a fully-motivated Barkley would've been like, or Derrick Coleman or any of the Jail Blazers like Damon Stoudamire (at one time thought to be a perennial All-Star), Isaiah Rider (a definite has-been, should've-been HOF) and even Shawn Kemp (had he not been addicted to alcohol, marijuana and cocaine).
I think Sheed is hall-bound due to the facts that he is a great complement and his unique attitude on and off the court is motivating and inspiring to those with him, but intimidating to those who oppose. He makes his teammates better, and has been very instrumental in the development of the Pistons and thier excellent bench production. We have not seen KG or Dirk do that. KG's excuse is the organization failed to put talent around him, but Dirk had all the talent necessary.
Sheed has the credentials, but hes lacking in the numbers category and that very well may be the reason he doesnt make it. He has surely had an impact on the NBA, but his numbers separate him from the likes of other fiery players such as Rodman and Barkley who have done just that. I do however know that KG is easily Hall-bound, he'll get one.
I feel like a Cinnabun, but they're all closed now. Damn.
Rasheed Wallace is the best inside derender in the league. Howard when guarded by Wallace was unable to improve his position an inch, he would drop step either way and end up farther from the basket and off balance, this is a common plight of down low players as they attempt to move on the block with the ball while being guarded by Rasheed. Offensively there is no move that Rasheed hasn't mastered. Wallace is the Pistons: their emotion, their intensity, their inside 'D'. Wallace leads the team just watch the Pistons pre-game team 'huddle'. Wallace has become everyones Big Brother on the team. Hall of Fame? He doesn't care.
The thign with Sheed is he has the talent to be a consistent 20/10 player, but in Portland he did not want to be, and now in Detroit he does not need to be, which suits him just fine.
He is an integral part of the Pistons, precisely because the team is built to have 5 players with 15 nightly, rather than 2 20 point scorers.
The league and media have a difficult time recognizing just how special the Pistons are. Sheed is a huge part of that, but he excels in leadership and teamwork rather than "selfish" play.
I'm am not saying Dirk and KG are selfish individuals. Their teams EXPECT them to be selfish, and WANT them to be selfish. Dallas and Boston have built their teams around the superstar, and NEED those guys to be "selfish".
The Pistons are built with a totally different blueprint, unlike virtually any other team. The Pistons had 59 wins this year and virtually no individual post-season honors.
The whole team is like Sheed, they all thrive on the team concept. Its a unique thing in sports in this day in age. While they have not dominated, they have consistently been an elite team, and been entertaining for the fans. Hopefully they'll get another championship or two to cement their legacy, because I doubt any players from the Pistons will be HOF players, not because of their talent, but because of the system.
Zach Randolph has been a 20/10 guy. Rasheed Wallace never has.
Who would rather have Randolph over Rasheed?
In this case rebound/scoring stats are over rated.
I find this comment "Rasheed never has and will end his career as a "never will be"" laughable regarding a guy who was the heart and sole of an NBA title winning team. Dirk and KG can't say that yet.
Whose team is having the best run in the playoffs so far? Oh yeah Sheed's team.
Well, at least we cleared up that numbers make a Hall of Fame player. So, clearly a player like Tracy McGrady is a Hall of Famer even though he has yet to win a championship while a player like Richard Hamilton, who has been the leading scorer on the most consistent team this decade or Manu Ginobili who provides the sparks for the Spurs' championship runs are not.
I agree with the last comment. Sheed is the leader of the most consistent team in the league. I mean, doesn't KG get more of his credit for his leadership and motivation than his actual numbers?
How much should post-season success, rather than regular season intensity, matter in HOF voting? After all, KG is the one with the interview telling us all that play-off basketball is so different than regular season and coaches are hired and fired based on post-season success, so shouldn't a player's ability to motivate his team in the play-offs count as much as his intensity in the regular season?
Put this way, right now, if your favorite team could acquire KG, Dirk, Sheed or Duncan for the rest of the play-offs, who do you want?
Brian,
No, stats aren't the whole picture, but they sure are part of the picture. If Sheed's stats were close to KG's and Dirk's, I'd absolutely give him the edge based on postseason success. But they're not close.
You're right - Sheed's got all the talent in the world. So doesn't the fact that he hasn't done as much with his talent count against him? I mean, how does a guy that talented average less than 7 rebounds a game for his career?
And finally, if you're gonna give him credit for his great intangibles and winning, don't forget the times when those "intangibles" went off the reservation - the technicals in close games, the yelling at coaches, etc. Did that stuff "motivate" his team in 2006 against the Cavs, or 2001 against the Lakers?
Sheed's a really nice player, but if you gave Joe Dumars the chance to trade him straight up for KG, Dirk, or Duncan, he'd make that deal in 5 seconds.
If rasheed is the only one who leaves the nba with a championship of those three i'm pretty damn sure that he will consider himself the most succesful, knowing that he could be a stat whore and dominate but instead plays perfectly in the system he is in and is the emotional leader of one of the most succesful teams of this decade.
The Sheed hate stems from ignorance of the game or a dislike for Sheed's persona.
Joe Dumars said this a couple of weeks ago-- "Rasheed Wallace epitomizes what I want a Detroit Piston to be," Dumars said. "He's a smart player, he plays to win, plays with passion and he's totally unselfish."
That says it all.
Everything we hate about Derrick Coleman you are praising in Rasheed Wallace.
If you are being payed millions of dollars, you are being paid for effort and consistency, neither of which has been provided by Sheed. At some point, supposed "talent" manifests itself with domination of the game. Sheed has never done it, and never will.
If you put Dirk in Sheed's place on the Pistons, they would threaten the 70 win mark.
Dirk and KG will end up in the Hall of Fame, and Sheed won't. There's no doubt about it. Sheed is a freedarko HoF'er.
Brian, I know that stats aren't everything, but are you seriously trying to say that Richard Hamilton has had a better career than Tracy McGrady? As for why Hamilton has a championship and McGrady doesn't, four simple words. Right place, right time. Ginobili, on the other hand. Yeah, he's awesome. As for Sheed, I would say he's a strong hall of fame candidate but not quite a hall of famer. His stats fall way short, but as others have noted they don't measure his fantastic non-statistical contributions to defense. Certainly wouldn't call him better than Dirk or KG though, championship notwithstanding. If those guys had played with Billups, Big Ben and Prince, they'd have a ring too. And almost certainly more than one.
Rasheed has made the conference finals more years (7) then he has missed (5) in his 12 years in the league. Dirk and KG have 3 conference finals appearances combined in 20 years.
Rasheed's got an NBA title. He's been called the Piston's best competitor by no less an authority then the guy the NBA named their sportsmanship award after, Hall of Famer Joe Dumars. The idea that Rasheed doesn't bring it every night because he has inconsistent stats from game to game is just garbage.
Tayshaun Prince has wildly differnt stat numbers from night to night as does Manu Ginobli and nobody calls them headcases. They're winners who do what's required to win within the context of a team game. Rasheed's "inconsistency" is exactly the same kind of winning attitude but because he doesn't come in a media friendly package he gets labelled a malcontent. It's just so much BS.
I don't understand how the Pistons can be the most consistent team this decade when their most talented player is apparently disinterested, unmotivated and lazy all the time. They must have a great coach. Oh, wait, Carlisle got fired, Brown was run out to a degree and everyone blames Saunders everytime something goes wrong...
Dirk would lead the Pistons to 70 wins? Wow, that's a bold statement for a guy whose team lost in the 1st round two years in a row, despite having a HOF PG on his roster.
Has McGrady had a better career than Hamilton? I don't know. How do you measure one's career? Scoring points or play-off wins? I think McGrady is a very talented player, but I don't see him as a Hall of Fame-type, but if KG and Nowitski are HoFers, it's hard to argue that McGrady is not. Maybe a better example is Vince Carter. Is Carter a HoFer? Has he had a better career than Richard Hamilton? Personally, I'd take Hamilton's career over Carter's.
The criticism of Wallace appears to be that he has a bunch of talent, but does not use it, while guys with better stats (KG and Dirk) do use their talent and thus are HofFers. But, if Wallace has failed to use his talent, what has KG or Dirk really done with theirs besides put up numbers? Even when KG went to the Conference Finals, it was Sam Cassell taking all the big shots. If Wallace has wasted his talent, what have McGrady and Carter done with theirs? They have stats, but is that all that matters?
I find it interesting that it now seems like the MVPO must come from the team with the best record, or close to it, but the HofF is apparently reserved for those whith gaudy stats, regardless of career winning percentage, play-off wins or championships.
"Brian, I know that stats aren't everything, but are you seriously trying to say that Richard Hamilton has had a better career than Tracy McGrady? As for why Hamilton has a championship and McGrady doesn't, four simple words. Right place, right time."
Billups...obscurity until he became a Piston.
Prince...nice all around player, but a great?
Hamilton...great mid range jumper and moves well without the ball, but a HOF player?
McDyess...seriously
Maxiell...who?
Without Sheed, this team would be nothing. How can you say that this is the right time, right place. These are nice players, but I would not say that this is the best supporting cast in the league. Dirk has 14 million more in payroll surrounding him, so tell me how the pistons are the "right place."
Listen:
Just because you are a very good player who happens to be on a very good team that wins a championship doesn't mean you are Hall-worthy. The Pistons won the 2004 championship, in part because of Rasheed's presence in the middle but ALSO because of the Lakers' inconsistency and implosion. Stephen A. Smith and Jon Barry made a couple of great points the other night--the Hall of Fame is about individual merit and work on the court, with team success as a backdrop. Sure, Rasheed has been on a "team of the decade" and sure he's advanced to more conference finals than not, but he never shined on his own; he never took advantage of his gifts on the court from a player standpoint, and he himself never advanced his skill set to the extent that he was seen as an elite player. Rasheed has NEVER even been an ELITE PLAYER in the NBA, and shouldn't the Hall give itself that? To have at least elite players in its realm.
Rasheed WILL be remembered, but his professional career is not indictive of being worthy of induction.
As for the T-Mac/Hamilton comparisons for Hall worthiness, that's a bogus comparison. Every championship team needs very good players, but does that mean that very good players automatically become Hall players if they win the championship? What about the great, great players who weren't provided with enough talent to win the championship? So you're telling me that Bernard King, Alex English and Dominique Wilkins deserved their Hall status LESS than Bill Walton, who only played about 3-4 NBA seasons in totality? Poppycock! Nonsense!
Break down McGrady's career--one of those exits in the playoffs was when he was second fiddle to Vince and hadn't broken out; another two or three was when Grant Hill was out and the team's money was tied up, so bringing in more elite talent was a non-option; and his DEGENERATIVE BACK DISORDER came into play in his previous exits with the Rockets, up until he solved that issue and then had lame shoulders and knees in these playoffs WITHOUT Yao.
My point is this--Rip, while very good, shouldn't be in the Hall just because he won a championship, nor should 'Sheed, just because he was the most player with most talent at his position in this era--'Sheed is one of the dopest, best ballers I've seen, but he never used his talent to full capacity and it shows; outside of his Pistons title, he was a loser (generally speaking) just like everyone else didn't win the championship.
I'll even mention this...Mitch Richmond won a championship with the 2001 Lakers, and he'll be in the Hall someday, but do you really think it's because of the title? NO--Mitch played 1988-1998 as a great talent and one of the most players of his period. It won't be (and shouldn't be) because he won a title, for that reason alone.
Again on Rip Hamilton. He is basically Jeff Malone if Jeff Malone had the luck to play with a bunch of players who are better than he is. As for Carter, no I don't think he's a hall of famer but he's certainly better than Hamilton. Brian, who was the hall of fame point guard Dirk was playing with last year? I guess you think much more of Jason Terry than I do. Kidd is not a hall of famer for what he's done this year, he's a hall of famer for what he did years ago. You are deliberately being deceptive here. Look, I like Sheed a lot. I'm one of the rare Blazers fans who doesn't hate him and thinks he got a terrible rap from a vindictive local media who hated his guts because he didn't like to talk to them. But calling him on Dirk or KG's level is over the top. As for whoever it was that noted Sheed always ends up in the conference finals. Gee, it's amazing what playing in the East can do, isn't it? "Without Sheed, this team would be nothing." They made the conference finals the year before they traded for him. And that was with Michael Curry and Cliff Robinson as their starting forwards. Nothing, my ass.
However you rank the top two on that list, Sheed will always be third. He might have the best all-around talent...KG doesn't have a good jump shot and Dirk is certainly not in either of those players leagues defensively, although just as good a rebounder...But 15 and 7 are not hall of fame numbers, and if he's such an integral part of the team besides that, where are his assist numbers? He can do everything. But he doesn't. If you're the coach of the Pistons and you've got a player of Nowitzki or Garnett's caliber, do you put them fourth on the list of the last second shot?
I think KG probably has the least talent in that set, but he gets the most out of it. I think that's why he disappears at the end of games...his jumpshot is not good, and if the other team is really really determined to stop him in the paint, it's possible to do. Just gotta be comfortable letting someone else beat you.
Dirk's turnaround elbow jumper is one of the elite moves in the game. Although not up there with the sky hook, it's Reggie Miller coming off a screen or the Stockton-Malone pick and roll. Even when you know it's coming there's nothing you can do. That's why he's the man for Dallas, and Wallace is the third or fourth man for a superbly balanced but not uber-talented Pistons team. I don't think anyone over there would freak out if Rasheed TRIED to go for 20 every night.
If you look in the drop in stats, Sheed might be a hall of famer if not for coming to Detroit. Sheed would rather win than achieve self ambitions. He wanted to blend in to the team atmosphere in Detroit. Let's not forget that in the first round game one Sheed was criticized for taking too many shots and throwing off the rhythm of Billups and Hamilton. Besides the argument that Nowitzki or KG would have won championships with Detroit is wrong, they cost too much. Sheed will take a pay cut for the team unlike some players. Also, would you rather be Laimbeer, Mahorn or Karl Malone?
I'm not arguing that Hamilton should be in the Hall of Fame. I'm not necessarily arguing that Sheed should be in the HofF.
My point, originally, was that if KG and Dirk are guaranteed HoF's, what about Sheed because he is more talented and has achieved more.
So far, the point is that Sheed doesn't maximize his talent, yet his team still wins. How do we know he does not maximize his talent? Why do we criticize a player for going for 15 and 7 and being the emotional leader of the most consistent team in the decade? People always argue there is more to basketball than stats. Well, so far the only argument against Sheed are stats. Everyone acknowledges the talent and acknowledges his team's success, but nobody seems wiling to suggest that those two go hand-in-hand, yet everyone wants to give KG the credit for the Celts this season even though his stats are down from his Twolves days and he has a reputation for not being a winner. I don't see the consistency between these two arguments.
Personally, I don't think any of the three are HoF's.
As for Hamilton vs McGrady, again, what do you consider a great career? Scoring a lot of points and not winning a play-off series or scoring many points and playing for a perennial contender? I'm not saying that it automatically makes Hamilton a better player than TMac, but I wouldn't argue that TMac has had a better career, unless you strictly look at numbers. Hamilton stays healthy, while TMac is frequently injured. Hamilton plays in conference and nba finals while tmac watches. i think these things have an affect and if i got to choose, i'd probably rather have a career like hamilton's where i am a borderline all-star on a championship-caliber team than being a surefire all-star who is frequently hurt and has never won a play-off series. now, that doesn't mean i am the better player, but i think it's a better career, all things being said.
you play the game to win. points are meaningless unless they transfer to wins. if sheed gets 15 a game and wins and defends the top posts in the league, and kg gets 22 a game and doesn't win, i'm not ready to argue that kg is the better player just because he plays harder in the regular season.
and, why is the mvp award suddenly based on who is the top player on one of the top teams, but HoF only counts stats? this i don't understand.
Brian, Sheed has not "achieved more" than Dirk and KG. You keep mentioning his teams success, but as I pointed out before, they were a pretty good team before he even got there thanks mainly to Big Ben and Chauncey Billups. Sheed (and Tayshaun Prince's emergence) made them even better which is a sign that he's a pretty good player, but Dirk and KG are a lot more than that. I would call them two of the top 5 players of the last 12 years or so (Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Dirk and KG in no particular order). Rasheed? Well, he just isn't. You seriously don't think Dirk and KG are HOFers? You are setting the bar awfully high there, and placing way too much value on winning a championship, a lot of which is basically the luck of playing with very good teammates in a very bad conference. Did KG suddenly become a "winner" this year? Or did he just start playing with teammates who didn't completely suck? If someone from this Pistons pseudo dynasty does have to make the Hall (and I don't see why this has to be a rule - it is possible for a team to have a lot of very good/not quite great players you know) I would vote for Billups.
The idea that just because a guy plays on a good team means that he is less valuable than a player who excels with scrubs is ignorant.
McGrady vs. Hamilton: If you are looking at stats to be a determining factor of the "greatness" of a player, you have to take into account the number of shots a player takes. Everyone is quick to point to a player like McGrady "carrying" his team to the playoffs and failing every year, but he takes 20-25 shots per game to score his 24 pts per game. If you look at RIP, he takes 14-16 shots per game to get his 19 pts per game. It is more than just stats...
Sheed vs Dirk: following the same idea, Sheed averages 11-12 shots per game to average his 12-15 points per game with an average of 1 turnover, 1.7 blocks and 1.2 steals. Meanwhile Dirk averages 17-19 shots for his 22-26 points per game with the same rebounds per game and 2 turnovers less than 1 block and 0.5 steals per game.
This allows for the team to excel instead of one person. I am not saying that a team cannot excel and have an outstanding player (Kobe). But it took building a solid team around Kobe in order for his team to win at the next level.
If numbers are what makes a player great, why don't we consider player like Zach Randolph and A. Jamison in the same category as Dirk and KG? They have comparable stats...oh that's right, stats don't matter. But those 2 guys have the drive to be "the Man," so why not make them HOFers.
I am not saying sheed is a shoein for the hall, but he should be mentioned as an elite player in the league. I would have to agree with Brian about all of them still needing to prove something before the hall doors open for them. I think it is all too watered down as is.
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